Talk:The Council
Vis Finders fees We have 5 sources to sort out (4 really) Creo - The magical spring which issues from the top of Caer Caradoc feeds a small pool upon the mount. The plants and animals thereabouts which are nourished by the pool seem more verdant and healthier than any others found upon the hill. In the first three weeks of spring, when new plant growth is at its peak, new shoots, seedlings, insects, tadpoles, and the like, can be harvested from in and around the pool for Creo vis. (spring) Muto - The regio's clement weather see the annual return of numerous species, including a rather splendid butterfly which feasts upon the nectar of the flowering heather. From the chrysalii collected two pawns of Muto Vis may be extracted. (spring) Rego(1) - On his travels, Marcus found himself crossing the regio boundary just at noon on an equinox. He paused to listen to the church bells ringing faintly in the distance and saw the sound of the music appearing visibly before him as mathematically perfect shapes, he was able to bring them to earth via spontaneous Rego magic (Imagonem probably) and they crystallized into flexible and fragile shapes of musical beauty. Each solstice and equinox, at noon, the music so appears and may be captured for a single pawn of Divine Rego vis. (equinox) Rego(2) - When the Emperor Hadrian completed his conquest of Britain, established a wall to keep the picts out and enforced peace across the land, he mad a triumphal tour on his way back to Rome. At certain places he would accept oaths of fealty and tribute from the celtic kings and cheiftans. In one particular place, marked by a now rather worn and obscure menhir, he accepted on a single day tributes from three seperate kings. A passing reference uncovered by Bartleby when copying the Rego text and mentioned to one of the magi, combined with some providential local lore suddenly uncovers the suspicion that there is a lot more to this site than a footnote in history. On the correct day, if libations and honour are paid to the now quite dead Hadrian, vis forms on the menhir. Corpus - While examining the Covenant, it is discovered that the sweepings in the barber shop contain residues of Corpus vis. From this point on, the barber is order to carefully retain all the hair cut from the heads of the grogs in the covenant, and furthermore, the grogs are ordered to get their hair trimmed regularly. This yields an annual supply of 6 Corpus, though in an emergency, shaving the heads of all those resident at the covenant could provide more at the cost of having to let it grow back at some point and harvest less. (year round) Notes: Longinus conducted a successful vis search during month 2, pulse 2 1220. No further details. Marcus was travelling around generally during spring 1221 on covenant business (vote pending). Both the Creo and Muto sources are specifically found during spring. Bartleby was working with Longinus the same season as he was working on the rego text and thus it seems likely that Longinus was the 'finder' for this source. :I agree with this one. It was was in my mind, when I suggested Bartleby uncovered it, as he was working with Longinus. --Perikles 14:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC) Corbon's opinions: 1. Finders fee should definitely not apply if the magus is currently on 'vis finding' service to the covenant (eg Longinus m2/p2/1220) : Not sure about this one, but a good point raised I think. Would you like to have Longinus raise it as an amendment to the Charter over Winter? Currently the Charter would not support this position. 5 out 6 magi will be needed to make an ammendment. --Perikles 14:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC) :: Regardless, for an amendment to affect things occurring before the amendment was passed is very dodgy and will likely cause you problems in a future. Vis found prior to the amendment in any way would provide a finder's fee, unless you wish to take this rather risky stance regarding amendments. --James 15:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC) ::: I don't think an amendment is necessary - I don't consider this likely to happen again, it simply a case of 'getting started'.--Corbonjnl 02:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC) 2. Finders fee should probably not apply if the magus is doing 'general travel' as covenant service (eg Marcus sp/1221) : I don't agree with this. If a mage is doing something else and they uncover a vis source, they should not be penalised for bringing to the Covenant's attention, but rather rewarded. Again, currently the Charter does not support this position, but perhaps Longinus would like to raise it as a seperate ammendment to the Charter in Winter? --Perikles 14:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC) :: Comment as above. --James 15:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC) ::: Doing something else is not the same as 'general travel'. Marcus effectively spent an entire season (actually split over two seasons, but still an entire season's worth) doing more or less 'random travel and socialising for the good of the covenant'. Its largely as a result of this that he was an option to be the 'finder' for multiple vis sources. Again, the point is moot as a) I don't expect it to come up again as it is a 'startup' type occurence, b) it seems as though Marcus won't be a multi-source finder anyway and c) he has probably been turned down as counting it as a season of service anyway. --Corbonjnl 02:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC) 3. In general, finders fee should only apply if the 'find' is during a story or as the result of a specific action. 4. The most likely 'finders' for all sources above except the Corpus source are Marcus or Longinus. Not that anyone else is ruled out, just talking likelihood here. : I agree. Possibly Bedo as well, with his skill in intellego. Mnemosyne has spent most of her time in and around the Covenant. SG decision here, which I'm sure he will make logically. --Perikles 14:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC) :: I would vote for Bedo as it would take Intellego spells to find this source. It is new, undocumented, and unexpected. --James 15:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC) 5. Longinus will not claim any finders fee for any of the sources. If found by him they were either found while on specific covenant business to do so, or really found through the sharpness of Bartleby as much as anything (see 7). : My idea for the Bartleby source was that he found a chance comment, which he thought interesting, but it was only when he brought it to a magus' attention (Longinus?) that the mage correctly interpretted it and then investigated it, so am quite happy for the discovered to take a cut. --Perikles 14:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC) :: Thanks to Bartleby, you are already a Rego summa richer, and he will continue to produce book-wealth for you. It is probably in your interests to take good care of him, regardless. Giving him the vis would make him extremely wealthy, but he is probably aware of what vis is and how valuable it is to the magi - or will be as he continues to copy texts for you. He needs to be rewarded. ::: Indeed. No harm however in making it official. --Corbonjnl 02:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC) 6. If Marcus finds three sources during his 'general stuff' season of covenant service and claims finders fee, then Longinus will vote against that season counting as a season of service, considering that recompense has been adequate already. : I'd probably be against this as if it was decided that Marcus' season was considered of value to the Covenant in itself. The fact that he ALSO managed to find vis sources for the Covenant should prejudice his reward. Of course, if he makes his finds in other seasons, it's not an issue. --Perikles 14:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC) :: Is this a confused sentence? The point was that Marcus' 'season' didn't have any particular defined value to the covenant, nor any exact aim or goal. It was a vague, general, 'make good contacts' sort of wandering thing - basically not much different to doing a vis search while smiling at folks along the way (in one way of looking at it). Basically it is reasonable to count it as a season of service as it did cost Marcus a full season's worth of effort (his combined result for the rest of the two seasons was to make a -3 lab, while everyone else had two full season's worth of effects), and it may/will have a beneficial impact on mundane relations down the line, but to score a bunch of vis while doing something so undefined feels a bit like double-dipping to me. Anyway, it appears moot. --Corbonjnl 02:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC) 7. Longinus wishes to have it noted that Bartleby should be owed a boon by the covenant for extra services rendered, even though he is not a member. --Corbonjnl 04:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC) : What did you have in mind here? --Perikles 14:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC) :: Not sure. Perhaps some sort of useful or just pleasing Magic Item might be made for him 'down the line' - perhaps using two points of vis. --Corbonjnl 02:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC) Jeff's Opinions/Opinio Marci 1. Agreed. That's double-dipping. 2. Not so sure and the reason why is explained below in 3. 3. "Stories" are game constructs, and I dislike having them impact things like this. It's an out-of-game mechanic affecting in-game results, if you follow me. 4. I agree that Marcus and Longinus seem the logical finders for at least a couple of sources. For the others, eh, who knows? 5. Marcus (and I) are of two minds on this. If Marcus found all/most of the sources, he'll probably keep a pawn or so as a token and chip the rest into stores. If it's more widely distributed, then probably not. I confess my first instinct was to toss it all in the pool - the explanation was put forth on a strict reading of the Covenant Charter. 6. As noted in 5 ... if Marcus finds three sources, he won't keep all the finder's fees, that's for sure. 7. Absolutely. I read the charter carefully to make sure that he wasn't owed the finder's fee, which he could then trade to someone for said boon. But, "legally" only members get finder's fees. Put a note into one of the Council sections. JBforMarcus 13:17, 6 March 2007 (UTC) Peri's General Opinion I had forgotten about the finder's gift. I suppose I considered these sources all hooks which had been bought and somehow seperated them. However, this is an OOC idea and shouldn't really mix with an IC issue. Basicly though, I'm just happy to have additional sources of income for the Covenant and don't care if Mnemosyne is the discoverer of any of these sources or not. It's only for the first year and a one time gift, and later much vis will flow into the Covenant coffers, and I really don't mind if people get some benefit from this. --Perikles 14:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC) James's opinion The seasons in which the sources are harvested do not necessarily correlate directly to the season in which they were discovered. I think it might be best if the sources were fairly evenly distributed among the magi, rather than their fortunes relying on sheer luck. I am happy for Bedo to get the Lion's share, as he has an Intellego magus and so it lies in his field of focus. Creo - Ambrosius (Inspected the water for possibility of supplying the covenant) Corpus - Bedo (Intellego to perform the mentioned sweep of the Mynd) Muto - Mnemosyne (Spent a lot of time on the Mynd) Rego1 - Marcus (Discovery described) Rego2 - Longinus (via Bartleby) Five sources, five magi, a bit of vis all round. I hope this is okay. --James 15:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC) : Seems rather good to me. Given James earlier explanation of the Bartleby's part in finding Rego2, such a scenario would probably see Longinus taking the finders fee and probably putting it aside (no doubt to be later swapped for Creo vis) for future use on behalf of Bartleby. --Corbonjnl 02:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC) Discussion of Marcus Service Moved and combined from a couple of different pages, just to clean stuff up. Not edited much. Marcus service was accepted. If it hadnt' been ... *Since his previous proposal failed, Marcus then asks if a season spent writing a tractatus would be acceptable, and offers Rego, Corpus or Magic Theory. : Note: The above vote only fails if Phaedrus either does not vote, or votes against the motion. If Phaedrus votes in favour of the above motion, this one is not really relevent... Of course, Sam is away right now and we're not sure when he's back. --Perikles 17:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC) ::I don't think that's true. A passing vote is 4. If Phaedrus votes in favor, that's only three, which fails ... unless ... am I misinterpreting the portion of the Charter that talks about abstentions. Since I am effectively abstaining, does that mean that a passing vote is now 3, since out of 5 votes 3 is a simple majority? JBforMarcus 17:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC) :::The motion needs more than half of the presented votes as a yay (or aye). Abstaining votes do not count. Thus we currently have 2 of 4 for, and 2 of 4 against, with one abstination. If the abstination was counted toward the total needed to secure an aye vote, it would effectively be a nay vote. Presumably this is not what you want, otherwise you wouldn't have proposed it. However, people who propose votes usually vote for them. That's up to you though. Corbon did an analysis of Marcus time spent That was someone else --SamuelUser talk:Samuel_ArsMagica 21:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC) Yes, me. Not sure how it got here, under this heading (not that it matters). I wrote this to clarify because someone muttered something inaccurate about how Marcus spent his time as they voted against him counting it as a season of service. If they did so loud enough to hear then Longinus would have attempted to correct them. This explains the facts without writing it into the covenant voting. --Corbonjnl 01:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC) * Marcus Seasons. from Winter 1221 results - Of the magi, Marcus alone ventures out, with Warren in tow. He undertakes a season of service for the covenant attending to the rather critical task of ensuring that the covenant has everthing it needs to survive the winter months, while maintaining his identity as a friar. The very depths of winter find Marcus back at the covenant, pottering around in the room that shall become his laboratory. During this time, he gets around a third of laboratory set up. from Spring 1221 results - The main structure having been built to his specifications, He spends two thirds of the month ensuring that his laboratory is at least somewhat usable and his dwelling properly outfitted for he and his co-habitants. The remaining third of the month (comprising time throughout the month) is spent overseeing some grogs working upon the site of the proposed school. Over the course of the season, they clear the land, and hammer out numerous stakes denoting the locations of various walls and features. The local lord rides up to take in the work, sate his curiousity and give it his blessing. The architect also wanders about the site with a plan and belabors the importance of proportion and balance. Net result, one 'season' getting lab to -3, one 'season' looking after the running of the covenant as only the Gently Gifted can. Every other Magus spent two full seasons in either their labs, or the library. So no 'concrete' results, but a season sacrificed for the good of all in a manner that only Marcus can. IMO there are potential benefits from this season in the future, regarding mundane relations (eg the local lord knows the school is going up, overseen by a locally known friar, and has given his blessing).